The often repeated flawed logic where it is argued by the Hadith heavy sects that since both the Quran and Hadith were passed on to us by the same group of people hence both must be equal in importance and or that the preservation of the meaning of the Quran is somehow tied to these people is obviously just that, flawed.
The first flaw would be that unlike the Quran, less than a dozen scattered reports out of several thousand can be classified equal to the evidence of the Quranic standard. As per the rules of "science of Hadith" each and every verse of the Quran will have to be and is classified as mutawatir bil lafz and Sahih. When you compare this to the reports ascribed to the Prophet of God, we find that less than a dozen can be classified as mutawatir and even less when you add the Sahih condition to it and finally close to half a dozen when you add bil lafz (verbatim).
The second flaw in the argument is that God explicitly took upon Himself to preserve the Quran and not any other source of our Deen. This fact remains intact in spite of the new slogan of "why would God preserve the Quran and not its meaning". To assume that Hadith literature gives meaning to the words of God is not only theologically problematic but also historically plain wrong. Not to mention the fact that the premier compilation of Bukhari is completely silent on a full 28 chapters of the Quran with these words " No hadith were mentioned here", if the meaning of 28 chapters can be understood without the supposed preservation of the meaning, I think it is safe to say we will manage without it for the rest as well.. Poor logic can be exposed with minimum effort. Sadly logic is not at the top of the agenda of most traditionalists, subjugation is.
Here is the complete list of Surah Bukhari washed his hands off, some explanation indeed; 23, 27, 29, 35, 51, 57, 58, 64, 67, 69, 70, 73, 76, 81, 82, 86, 88, 89, 90, 94, 100, 101, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, and 109
The third clear flaw is that if both were to be considered equal in any terms then why is it that the Quran was passed on to us verbatim by the same group of people (I say, group, because it was not always the same players, very important to note) but the same group mysteriously had bouts of memory leaks while reporting the Hadith.
The fourth flaw is that there are no contradictions in the Quran and scores in the Hadith literature. This particular point can be demonstrated with ease in spite of the traditionalist's word twisting and subjectivity by focusing on those reports that reference measurable quantities or clearly distinguishable elements like left and right, 10 or 13 etc.
The fifth obvious thing to note is misdirection in the claim hence the question; if one were to assume that the plan was to use the same people to preserve the Quran and Hadith then why didn't the Prophet Pbuh use Abu Hurairah or Anas ibn Malik or Abdullah ibn Umar or his wife Aisha to write down the Quran ? After all more than half of Bukhari's compilation consists of these four.
I agree with this completely. In addition, it might be silly to talk about the flaws of Hadiith using this, but I've always found it interesting that the Prophet said, "Convey to other persons none of my words, except those ye know of a surety." How can we be sure of what the Prophet said when it was relayed through chains of people AFTER his death? Especially since he did not allow people to write down his actions while he was alive.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, I find it strange that the Hadiith are elevated to the same level as the Quran when it comes to Fiqh. Especially for matters outside of religion, anything the Prophet may have said was applicable to his time and may not be so now. By taking and dissecting every small bit of advice and opinion he gave, I think we risk deifying the Prophet by putting his law at the same level as Allah's divine law.
Just my thoughts :) This is a fantastic blog.
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله
ReplyDeleteلقد آثرت الرد باللغة العربية لأنى لا أجيد التعبير الدقيق بالانجليزية.. وإنى أريد أن أناقش ما كتبت بشكل أقرب الى استخدام ذات اللغة التى حملت الينا القرآن والسنة،
أخى.. انكارك للحديث الذى وصل الينا بطريق التواتر يحتاج الى بعض المراجعة.. انت تعلم الحديث القائل "عليكم بسنتى وسنه الخلفاء المهديين من بعدى،عضوا عليها بالنواجذ"
و قول الله تعالى"وما اتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهوا" لكنك تحتج بعدم وصول الحديث بأربعة شهداء على الأغلب.. فإن وصل اليك أن كذا من الصحابة وبالأخص الخافاء الراشدين عمل به.. أفترى أنهم أقل منا حرصا على اتباع السنة والفوز بمرضاة الله؟ وان نما الى علمك أن الخليفة عمر ابن الخطاب كان لا يقر حديثا دون أن يحضر راويه شاهدا واحدا.. وأنت تعلم أن الاشهاد فى الدين بشاهدين فيما عدا الاشهاد على الفاحشة فلم غلظت القول بوجوب أربعة شهداء؟؟
الدارس لعلوم الحديث التى تنكرها يعلم أن الحديث الصحيح منه عزيز ومنه غريب: فالعزيز هو ما ورد متنه بطرق إسناد أخرى بلفظه أو بمعناه, والغريب ما لم يرد فيه سوى رواية واحدة.. فهم بذلك قد قاموا بجهد كبير فى تصنيف الحديث مما يوضح لك الأمور فان كنت تحب العمل بالأحاديث العزيزة فقط فمن السهل عليك حينها بالنظر فى كتب الحديث معرفة أين هى تلك الأحاديث ومن راووها..بالاضافة الى أن اللأحاديث الغريبة لا يؤخذ بها فى وجود الحديث العزيز حين استخراج الأحكام الفقهية.. ولكن العلماء يرون ان من الأولى تفضيل الحديث الغريب على الاجتهاد الشخصى حين اصدار حكم فى مسألة ما, مثل الامام مالك.. بينما يرى أبو حنيفة تفضيل الاجتهاد على الحديث الغريب ففى ذلك سعة اذن.وقد فطن اليها علماؤنا منذ زمن بعيد.. وذلك لا يعنى تقاعدنا عن البحث واعتمادنا على ماورد الينا, لكننا لا يجب أن نغفل بجرة قلم مجهودا ضخما صنعه أئمة الحديث حتى يصل الينا على هذا النحو الواضح!
من يتعمق فى علوم الحديث يزول عنده كل شك مما أوردته فى مقالك.. ذلك لأن ما يتوارد على ألسنة الناس من أحاذبث فى وقتنا الحالى تحتوى الكثير من الأحاديث الضعيفة التى أسهمت فى إعراض الناس عن الحديث برغم أن التعمق فى البحث يظهر أنها قد صنفت بالفعل من الأحاديث الضعيفة فى كتب الحديث.. إذن فقد قام العلماء السابقون بدورهم فى هذا ولكن بقى أن نقوم نحن بدورنا ونبين الصحيح من الضعيف ونوقف هذا التخبط فى تناول السنة على المنابر وفى الكتب والمواقع الالكترونية
أما بخصوص ما أوردته عن الامام البخارى فى ذكره لأحاديث تفسير القران أقول:
القران تناول الدين بقسميه: العقيدة والتشريع.. فأما التشريع فلم يغفل رسول الله منه شيئا لم يبينه على وجهه... وأما العقيدة فقد تناول رسول الله منها القدر الكافى لأى مسلم أن يثبته ويلقى فى قلبه الإيمان.. بقى ما تناولته الايات من ظواهر كونية وايات وعلامات فسر رسول الله بعضها وأعرض عن بعض عمدا من غير سهو.. فالدين يحضنا على التفكر والواجب على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يترك مساحة لهذا التفكر والاستنباط فلو فسر رسول الله كل ايات القران لأغلق الباب على المجتهدين.. علما بأن ما تركه رسول الله لا يؤثر بحال فى عقيدة المؤمن واننا متى سلمنا بصحة هذا الدين وايقننا اتباعه فإننا نؤمن بجميع ماجاء به القران حتى ولو لم نفهم بعضا منه طالما تعلمنا الشرائع بحذافيرها.
فما أورده الامام البخارى فى باب التفسير انما يقع فى هذا البند.. بند ما لا يتعلق بالشرائع.
فلا يدل ذلك بحال على امكان الاستغناء عن السنة والاكتفاء بالقران الكريم
أما ما أوردته المعلقة الكريمة: منى..بخصوص اختصاص الحديث بما حدث فى زمن رسول الله وعدم امكان تطبيقه فى الواقع الحالى فهو هدم للدين من الأساس استنادا الى الاية الكريمة التى أوردتها سابقا.. وقد عنى علم الحديث أيضا بالترتيب الزمنى للروايات حتى نعرف الأحكام الثابتة والمنسوخة.. فما بين أيدينا الان من أحكام فقهية هو ما استقر عليه الأمر النهائى...أما المنسوخات فهى معروفة الا عند منكريها من بعض الفرق كالشيعة مثلا... وما لا يختلف المسلمون عليه من المعلوم من الدين بالضرورة معروف للجميع.. أما مااختلفوا عليه من أحكام فهو من رحمة الله بنا ومن مقومات كمال هذا الدين وصلاحيته للناس على اختلاف أجناسهم وأزمنتهم.
أشكر حسن استماعك... واقدر لك اجتهادك والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله
Salam Amal, thank you for visiting the blog and for your comments. It is understandable that my pointing out the serious flaws in the claims of those that try to elevate the Hadith literature beyond a historical account sets me up as if I am against the Sunnah of the Prophet Pbuh.
DeleteLet me make clear once again :) I am a very strong advocate of Sunnah and that is why totally against ascribing impossible to verify reports to the Prophet Mohammad Pbuh. The problem with basing any rule of Deen on reports that do not meet the standard of evidence detailed in the Quran is that then you will not be following the Quran or the Sunnah. You will not be following the Quran because you will not be applying the standard of evidence detailed in the Quran. You will not be following the Sunnah because the Prophet of God could never go against the Quran for one. More importantly the Prophet of God would never in a million years give anybody the permission to pass on his sayings or judgments in a manner that would not meet the Quranic standard of evidence.
I noticed that you half quoted the Quran verse 59:7, the actual meaning of the full verse not even the ultra conservative Mohsin khan translate it in the manner that is implied by the obsessive half quoting;
What Allah gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad SAW), the orphans, Al¬Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. Quran 59:7
As is clear from the verse that this particular verse has to do with the just distribution of war booty and nothing else.
Now that does not mean we should not follow God’s instructions to obey the messenger as opposed to the often flawed translation where obeying the messenger is confused with following the messenger. We cannot follow the messenger we can only follow the official message delivered by the official messenger of God. Whenever following the messenger is detailed in the Quran so are the elements that have to be followed. For example; If we were to emulate the best example of the Prophet Pbuh then it would be focusing more on God, the day of Judgment and remembrance of God as the verse Quran 33:21 clearly spells out and not to twist it to mean physical appearance. Muslims will truly be obeying the message and the messenger if we try to adapt the qualities of Momins, the same qualities exhibited by the Prophet of God as an example for our benefit, qualities of truthfulness, humbleness, politeness, empathy, generosity and courage for the right reasons all come to mind. If we were to focus on these then we will not be spending our time forever explaining away why we look the way we look but to use every opportunity to attract non Muslims to Islam through who we are and not how we look.
Similarly you mention the Caliphs, it is important to point out that my blog post are intended to expose the less than sound claims associated with the Prophet Pbuh and absolutely not to in anyway dishonor or belittle the Prophet of God. In simple terms my dispute is with the traditionalist’s version of Sunnah and not the Sunnah. In fact it was caliph Umar who systematically burned all recorded Hadiths. He did that in line with the Prophet’s Pbuh explicit instructions not to write down his saying and judgments. There is a lesson in that.
I see you need to read more in that... the order of inhibiting Sahaba to write Sunnah was then replaced by allowance, shortly b4 Prophet Muhammad's death and it was on public, during the Khutbah of Wada3 in Hajj, and in other ceremonies.
Deleteas for the verse, it is not the only verse that orders obeying the Prophet, which literally means following his Sunnah which reached us from his companions...من يطع الرسول فقد أطاع الله... ومن يطع الله ورسوله يدخله جنات تجرى من تحتها الانهار ومن يتول يعذبه عذابا اليما
and if you will intend to specify every verse to the case it was revealed for, youre just evacuating the Quran from it's objective, and calling others to attribute every verse to the occasion it was revealed for till no verse should then be followed.. and the rule says: العبره بعموم اللفظ لا بخصوص السبب
the generality of the expression should be considered, not the specification of the cause.
an the more I study the science of Hadith and the ways used for its purification.. the more i get amused with the huge effort exerted to deliver the Sunnah so refined... so please leave the issue to the specialists and don't let urself get into things you have no enough information about... coz it's a huge responsibility you should be aware of.
and b4 u judge any hadith you've heared from anybody.. make a small search or ask a specialist to know its greade b4 you get into judging it.
thank you for your care to reply.
Was Salam Alaikom Wa Rahmatullah
I read all the time, in fact I am a compulsive reader :)and it pains me to see otherwise ordinary Muslims completely shut their minds once these mind messing professional get to them. Why can't they see that Bukhari's methodology was defective whatever it was, since the actual methodology is either conveniently omitted by Bukhari himself or was removed during 500 years of successive morphing of his works by one or all of the 100 Rulers/Caliphs that had a chance to tamper with it through the many Ruler friendly clergy after the age of taqleed was manufactured by them. Since that time they are fighting not only to protect their license to subjugate ordinary God fearing Muslims but to protect their historical bedfellows, the corrupt leadership in the guise of Kings and dictators. The only change from then to contemporary Mullah is that he has elevated his ambitions to be the emperor as opposed to be employed by the emperor. And no less a figure than Ghazali, the father of taqleed, agrees with Hadith like below, imagine that!
DeleteMuslim Book 020, Number 4524:
"It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: It is obligatory for you to listen to the ruler and obey him in adversity and prosperity, in pleasure and displeasure, and even when another person is given (rather undue) preference over you."
and this gem
Muslim Book 35, Number 4232:
Narrated Hudayfh Ibn al-Yaman: Prophet said: ............"There will come rulers after me who do not guide to my guidance and do not practice my Sunnah, and the hearts of some them are the hearts of Satans but they are in the body of human." I said: "What should we do at that time?" Prophet (PBUH) said: "You should just listen to them and obey those rulers. No matter if the hurt you and take your wealth, you should follow them and obey them." ........
So the dilemma they have been facing throughout is if they remove the ridiculous reports like the above, (they will still be ridiculous no matter how much you sugarcoat them) what next, if a methodology is constituted through which previously declared Sahih Hadith can be struck off the list then the real possibility of removing the Ruler friendly reports becomes a reality and that is simply out of the question especially now when they aspire to be emperors themselves:) The mentality is the same modern day subjugating tactics, once you are on the "list", it's forever.
Let me repeat at the risk of sounding like a broken record. The issue is not whether we should obey the messenger, the issue is to first determine what is it that needs to be obeyed. In order to do that we have to start with the primary document. The Prophet Pbuh did that and if we were to obey the messenger so should we.
DeleteThe only 100% verifiable word of God is the primary document the Quran. So if we start with the primary document which is the official message of God to all of us and delivered by the official messenger of God, we quickly discover that the standard detailed for serious claims require that four witnesses are produced to verify the claim. This even applies when dealing with everyday social situations.
Now if we were to formulate laws governing these very social situations where the claim must be backed by four witnesses, no exceptions, therefore it stands to reason that the minimum four witness rule cannot be put aside while formulating these laws where four witnesses are needed to apply them. It applied to the Prophet Pbuh and it applied to his companions and it applied to his family. Nobody has the authority to change this rule, nobody.
Furthermore, the Quran seals the issue by reminding us that although there were very pious and genuine companions around the Prophet Pbuh, at the same time there were hypocrites posing as companions as well. In addition God spells out the fact that not even the Prophet Pbuh knew who these hypocrites were.
So you see the problem now. It is not a question of whether we should obey the messenger or not, it is a no brainer that we should but more importantly what we must never do is to accept claims that sells reports by ascribing them to the Prophet Pbuh but fails to meet the criteria laid out in the primary document to back those calims. The very document, Quran, containing the official message on which the entire Sunnah of the official messenger of God was based.
All the above facts are easily verifiable without any specialist knowledge. That leaves us to worry about the the "experts". But if you have understood the above and if an expert(s) is trying to tell sell you something that goes against the above verifiable facts then the seller is not an expert, it is that simple. It doesn't matter how many other experts agree with him or her (needless to say there will always be others disagreeing with all of them), it still will not change the fact that we should not accept unverifiable reports from anyone. Let us remind ourselves, reports that cannot be backed by four witnesses for serious claims have zero value in Islam
Of course the problem has always been the same, in Islamic sects and sects in general. Convictions reached through "reviews" done by others can weather any truth or evidence. Especially when those "reviewers" are unable to explain as to how they managed to bypass God's warning that some of the companions were hypocrites. Yes it is a verifiable fact that the so called "science of Hadith" does not contain any methodology to determine who those those hypocrites were. Non whatsoever. Anyone who accepts these reports blindly are forever blind to evidence contrary to their hardened position as a result of it.
Allow me to illustrate the problem with this short story;
A farmer had a beautiful garden full of water melons, the only problem was that people kept on stealing them. In order to prevent losing his water melons to the thieves, he had a brilliant idea. he put up a sign saying that one of the water melons is poisonous. The farmer was very pleased with his solution until he woke up one morning to find a new sign that said, Now two water melons are poisonous.
I will continue; As far as the issue of “settled” is concerned, nothing can be further than the truth because in order to settle something you need consensus and in spite of repeated claims, nothing was ever settled except within some sects which by definition are illegal to begin with. It stands to reason why nothing was settled because the different Madhabs proponents could not agree on the premise of their rulings. The following is quick guide to the five different criteria one each for the corresponding madhab;
ReplyDeleteHanafi : Through public agreement of Islamic jurists
Shafi : Through agreement of the entire community and public at large,
Maliki: Through agreement amongst the residents of Medina only
Hanbali: Through agreement and practice of Muhammad's Companions only (there is still no consensus on what constitute a sahaba)
Usuli: Only the consensus of the ulama while the Prophet Pbuh was alive or Shia Imams
Don't you think they should resolve first what is Ijma before issuing fatwas 24/7 and duping ordinary Muslims, the big joke of "consensus of the scholars" starts with the comedy of innovations that scream against the letter and spirit of Islam and end up with crimes against Muslims/humanity, yes crimes, that presently is consuming the Muslim communities.
Lastly let me reiterate there is no running away from the four witness standard. God has laid down the standard of proofs and conditions of accepting eye witness testimony. God in fact is very clear on the issue of claims. Even for a social matter that rates several notches below theological and jurisprudence issue of ascribing reports to the Prophet Pbuh, He has set standards. The standard is four witnesses (must be upright members of the community) are needed to back any claim of significance, irrespective of good intentions. And if you cannot produce the required four witnesses then you know what ? You are a lier in God's own words. Imagine that.
Why did they not produce for it four witnesses? And when they do not produce the witnesses, then it is they, in the sight of Allah , who are the liars. Quran 24:13
Note: There are limited social transaction where two witnesses will suffice but they are restricted to everyday social and financial transactions.
My humble advice to those who readily accept reports short of the Quranic standard as "Sahih" is to go back to whoever is teaching you our beautiful Deen and demand the Quranic standard, the same standard that gave us the following Hadith:
The Prophet Pbuh said "Whoever lies about me deliberately must prepare himself for a place in Hell-fire."
I hope I covered everything pointed out in your post. God bless you.
Salam, I don't know if you remember me, I'm Seraj. I can't seem to access my account on here any more so I'm afraid I'm posting as anonymous http://www.blogger.com/profile/13196351778554280936
ReplyDeleteAnyway, there's an interesting question made my those who wish to refute the notion of rejecting Hadith and following the Qur'an alone, and that's how do you know when to cut the hands of a thief and when not to?. The Qur'an does not specify how much has to be stolen for the punishment to be carried out, does that mean we can amputate a thief just for stealing a loaf of bread, or a piece of cloth? The Hadith lists the conditions for carrying out and the punishment and one of them as I'm sure you're aware is for the stolen item(s) to be worth a certain amount of money, which would have been equivalent to a quarter of a dinar back in the Prophet's days. How do you decide how much the item(s) has to be worth for the punishment to be carried out using the Qur'an alone?
Salam :)
Salam Seraj, how are you, i hope you and your family were not affected in a bad way by all the going ons in Libya,
DeleteI recently put up a couple of new posts on the issue. In my opinion there is nothing in these reports that will resolve any issue. The question that comes to mind on this particular issue is; if the hand (s) of a thief is to be cut off then is he/she allowed to grow it back in light of the new research where it is already possible to grow back fingers and it is only a matter of time before whole limbs can be grown back. So how does the Hadith literature resolve this point :) Since it is clear we will have to do it without the aid of Hadith, i am sure we will figure out when and how much to cut. That is if that is what is required :)
Alhamdullilah we haven't been badly affected by the events here, but of course it hasn't been easy either! But we're okay alhamdullilah thank you for asking :)
DeleteSo how can you determine what you need to know using the Quran alone? as far as I'm aware the only information available in the Quran on this topic is that robbers' hands should be cut off, nothing on how much has to be taken or how much to cut? Is there any way to get this information from the Quran?
The often parroted phrase "Hadith explains the Quran" becomes comical on closer scrutiny. This may interest you :)
DeleteVolume 8, Book 81, Number 780 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
The Prophet said, "The hand should be cut off for stealing something that is worth a quarter of a Dinar or more."
Volume 8, Book 81, Number 783 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
The hand of a thief was not cut off during the lifetime of the Prophet except for stealing something equal to a shield in value.
Volume 8, Book 81, Number 785 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
A thief's hand was not cut off for stealing something cheaper than a Hajafa or a Turs (two kinds of shields), each of which was worth a (respectable) price.
Volume 8, Book 81, Number 787 :
Narrated by Ibn 'Umar
Allah's Apostle cut off the hand of a thief for stealing a shield that was worth three Dirhams.
Volume 8, Book 81, Number 791 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah 's Apostle said, "Allah curses the thief who steals an egg (or a helmet) for which his hand is to be cut off, or steals a rope, for which his hand is to be cut off."
Please do verify the Arabic and the references. Tks
I understand what you're saying and you're right, but that doesn't answer how do we determine when to cut off a robber's hand using the Qur'an alone?
DeleteSalaam,
ReplyDeleteI guess the most pragmatic & sanity-preserving rule of thumb for a Muslim is Quran first, personal logic second, sunnahs third, societal norms fourth... (unless one is not yet intellectually convinced of Quran's veracity, in which case logic first then :)
Which brings us to an interesting hypothetical question: If there arises an empirically verifiable evidence that unambiguously contradicts the Quran, how should one react to it? Put faith in the Quran being correct and the interpretation of evidence being wrong, or put faith in the soundness of the interpretation itself? Can this question be settled objectively, or is it subjective to each person's Bayesian inferences?
Salam, I agree with your stack as long as Sunnah is not confused with the popular Hadith literature. The best estimates struggle to cross a hundred when it comes to Mutawatir Hadith. The more realist number would easily fit on a two pager with generous font size. As far as third party Ahad reports goes, For me, by themselves, they have exactly zero value in Islam.
DeleteYes we have to start with logic (logic, reason, critical thinking) first till such time that the process of validation and verification pierce our individual believability threshold.
As for your hypothetical question :) in the absence of NEW knowledge as opposed to mere empirical data it is difficult to imagine what could contradict the Quran. Its like imagining some day 1+1=2 may not hold true in any context :)
If you could elaborate a bit more perhaps I will be willing to bite :)
Can you suggest a site that compiles mutawatir hadiths? my searches so far doesn't unearth much.
Deleteby the way, what do you think of http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/asb3.html 's treatment on the classification of hadith categories according to number of reporters? reading that and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/bukhari.html gives the impression that some of the hadiths that seems to be Ahad at first may actually have more reporters that were left out of Bukhari's al-Jami' for the sake of brevity.
Also, I am interested in knowing your thoughts on the site's rebuttals to Joseph Schacht's claims of fabrications of hadiths in http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/exisnad.html .
As for the hypothetical question, it came to my mind upon reading this particuar comment on the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewZYfIiBpkk&google_comment_id=z125h12ppt3neb0pa04ccrdjnpyrhxprev40k
"He just claimed that Dawkins is bad for claiming science is the "gospel" truth, but makes the same claims about his own book... He also just said that science changes, which it does but he left out an important part of that line. It changes with evidence. Then he proceeded to say anything that doesn't agree with his book would be ignored.
That's the fundamental difference between religion and science. Religion holds us back."
That hypothetical question also relates back to another one i had before: "what if God is a Trickster God? i.e. all these commandments were just lies on His whim, for his own entertainment. He might just punish/reward people randomly, or souls aren't actually eternal and we'll go to oblivion when we die, as insubstantially meaningless to this cruel God like characters in a computer game"
my own (addmittedly apologetic) answer to that is that in absence of sound evidence in this direction, the Trickster God theory simply violates Occam's Razor, as frivolous as the Spaghetti Monster or Russell's Teapot when compared to the holistic & realistic Deen of Islam.
Salam, after spending countless hours researching it, I have long given up on trying to make sense of the Hadith literature. If the objective is to extract something of value that has anything to our Deen then my humble advice, don't waste your time trying to make sense of something that is fundamentally flawed on so many levels.
DeleteIf on the other hand the objective to get a sense of how did we manage to deviate so spectacularly then by all means go ahead.
You are not going to find a neat list somewhere that categorically state these are the definite Mutawatir Ahadith but individual efforts based on what the compiler understood it to mean. There is no consensus on what exactly is a Mutawatir Hadith. An oddity in itself but when one takes into consideration the real objectives of the Hadith peddling it actually makes perfect sense. Logically it should mean a large number of narrators on every rung of the chain especially those companions and family members who supposedly actually heard the actual words uttered by the Prophet of God as opposed to an observation or the absence of one. Because that is how it is marketed. "The Prophet said"
Again it is very difficult to nail down what one would term verbatim reports, curiously there is a term for it “bil lafiz” and if one were to apply all the different criteria of Mutawatir proposed by different schools and individuals then it is estimated that there are either four or five such reports on record. Ironically the most famous one is a warning not to associate lies to the Prophet of God. Fittingly there are two versions of even this particular report. In part it says; Whoever tells lies about me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.” Narrated by al-Bukhari, 1229. Even here the word deliberately is in dispute. Another version says “Do not tell lies about me, for whoever tells lies about me will enter Hell.” Narrated by al-Bukhari, 106. One can glimpse the core of the issue in this particular example but for me what sealed the it were the three versions of the last Sermon, supposedly witnessed by over a hundred thousand people. As someone pointed out we need to be mindful of the unlikelihood of lying and the impossibility of lying.
Here are some efforts that tried to make sense of the nonsensical that include both Mutawatir verbatim and Mutawatir in “meaning”, mostly the later.
These include:
a. al-Fawa’id al-Mutakathira of Imam Jalal al-Din Suyuti
b. al-Azhar al-Mutanathira of Imam Jalal al-Din Suyuti, an abridgment of the previously mentioned work of his.
c. al-Aali al-Mutanathira of Sham al-Din Muhammad ibn Tulun.
d. Luqat al-Aali al-Mutanathira of Murtadha al-Zabidi.
e. al-Nazm al-Mutanathir of Sayyid Ja`far al-Kattani.
Some useful links, the first one is from the site you mentioned, the classifications issue and the claim you referred to is not worth getting into, these are claims. Period.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/aape.html#J32
http://www.slideshare.net/nsnirjhor/a-collection-of-mutawatir-hadith?related=2
http://www.al-eman.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%85+%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%B1+%D9%85%D9%86+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AB+%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%AA%D8%B1+**/i24&p1
Curiously this list I could only find in the internet archive.
http://web.archive.org/web/20061031015411/http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/Index.asp?Lang=ENG&Type=3
Link to original manuscripts if you want to go that route
http://makhtota.ksu.edu.sa/MakhtotaEnglish.aspx